Thanks for the citation. No one's called me a dear reader in, well, quite a while. But as such, I have to express my fear that you are veering too close to becoming a Trump apologist. Trying to "contextualize" his rants is a fool's errand. From a libertarian point of view, Trump and Harris are equally repellent, albeit for different reasons. The following should in no way be construed as an endorsement of Harris, so please do not. But the simple fact is that, with Trump, the damage to the republic is already done. The doctrine of the "unitary executive" raised its hideous head forty years ago, hit the accelerator with John Yoo in the Bush years and now, via Trump v. United States (a heinous decision never so aptly named), has torched the Constitution. This is perhaps the most famous exchange in our history: A woman approached Ben Franklin on the street after the Constitutional Convention. ''So, do we have a king?'' she asked. ''No madam,'' Franklin said. ''You have a republic - if you can keep it.'' Giving a president kingly powers was the single thing the Founders most wanted to avoid. They thought that the Constitutional separation of powers would prevent that from happening. And it did, until 2024. This year, a Supreme Court stacked with Trump appointees working expressly to his benefit gave its blessing to the unitary executive. No, the ruling does not give a president free rein to do whatever s/he wants; Congress may still employ impeachment and expulsion from office as a last resort against a tyrant (which, realistically, is not much of a deterrent). But what it does do is remove future accountability from a president's actions. With that gone, Franklin's republic is in cinders. Egregious abuses of power may occur under a President Trump or Harris--or a future President Vance or Newsom. Doesn't matter what party the person who decides to test the new limits represents. The only certainty is what history will remember Donald Trump and his court lackeys for. That they betrayed the grandest vision in human history, the idea that the people can self-rule and there should be no more kings....
There is much said here Mr. Hornig. What is not is that Mrs. Harris has been appointed by her party and not chosen by her people, thus enabling her handlers to rule. The big question is, who rules the DNC? Don't forget to vote.
Not the first time the Democrats have done this; the same thing happened to Gene McCarthy in '68 (for those of us geezers who remember). But the point isn't whether Harris is an illegitimate candidate nor whether she (or Trump) will be a miserable president. The point is that long after these two have faded into history, the disastrous Supreme Court ruling will continue to undermine the very basis of the republic. If the president, whomever it is, is to have kingly power, then there isn't much reason to vote....
Sending 20,000 Haitians to city of 50,000 in the midwest is just plain harassment (destruction of malicious intent) of Americans just like all the ideas laid out above.
As the last man standing after WW II, we rebuilt Europe and then -- by default, not desire -- became the go-to nation to defend it from the Communists.
We succeeded in this endeavor too. It took roughly 40 years but the USSR finally and totally collapsed.
I happened to be there when it did. Its peaceful collapse was due to the Russian people wanting a different form of government. Not because we were waving a sword
Joining a throng in St Issac's Square, which the Nazis shelled for several years accomplishing nothing, I vividly remember seeing a circular void in the enormous crowd facing the Mayor's ornate office building
Curious, and hoping it was a bench where I could give by "barking dogs" a rest, I squeezed my way to it. I was stunned to find a black Lincoln limousine with US flags posted on handsome stanchions on each side of the front bumper.
Apparently the US Consul parked his be-flagged car there to demonstrate the USA supported the Russian people in their quest to topple communism. And the massive crowd displayed its respect by treating this symbolic statement with respect.
Chaotic times but, on Day Three of their peaceful revolution, I traveled to Moscow in a near empty Aeroflot airplane.
I discovered the soldiers in Moscow had not been issued any rounds; it was all show. The peaceful revolution was over. Pity Putin is seeking to turn the clock back.
Pity too that we lost our way. Stunning that we invaded at horrendous expense three dirt pile countries, neither a threat to us (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) ignominiously losing each conflict and accomplishing nothing apart from killing millions.
Time to return our flag from all its postings abroad. Henceforth, let it follow trade; not bayonets
I don't think that your "dirt pile" countries would have fitted that description without the economic and military intervention of your empire. Admittedly you have not been the first empire to try your hand with any of them, but have you been to Vietnam? If you compare and contrast the inner cities of Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh (Saigon) with those of any significant US city I think you may have to reassign the label "dirt pile" closer to home.
By the way Mr. Bowman, if you think brushing your teeth can be so perilous, try stepping out of a shower stall with something as treacherous as a 1.5" rise to prevent water runoff! But I'm delighted to see that you have survived. And it could be lovely, I agree with your implication there, to lie back and bask in the fading glories of a passed empire. The extra money would be nice, too.
I am afraid that the only way our "Empire" survives is that the essentially impossible happens. The Political Leaders (hopefully elected) decide that we must eliminate the deficit spending and bring down the debt. And, then they must actually start doing it! The chances of. that are probably less than 1%.
All empires end, because they are built on the concept of selfishness, instead of agape. This is covered in Discourse On Agape, which you can read free here: https://discourseonagape.org/booklets/ (There is a new Russian translation, as well as Spanish) And not just empires, but all life on earth will end, it's in Matthew 24: 14, and elsewhere. We are even told how it will end: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. -Revelation 6:14, also Isaiah 34:4. In other words, the atmosphere will be gone. No air, no life. Fortunately, we do not have to die. All we need to do is receive the life of the Son of God, and we can be with Him and the Father forever, in a kingdom that cannot fall. Even if we die before the end of the world, we can be assured we will be raised in the first resurrection, Revelation 20: 4-6. But, I don't believe the end of the world is that far off. Most reading this may live to see the last day events.
You're not going to like my post. However, I can go over Isaiah 9:6-7 from the Hebrew wherein the verse starts out with Isaiah speaking of a past completed action. Unto us a child WAS born, WAS given. Verse seven identifies the son born as Dowd / David.
Christians for some reason believe someone other than the named king sits upon their throne. The current King Charles sits upon the throne of all past kings and his mother's throne. No one says king Charles is sitting upon the Queens throne. The same is true for the throne of Dowd, when it is spoken of Dowd will be occupying his throne not Greek Jesus.
Who wrote all Christians bibles? The very same empire that created the church. All English bibles are revisions of the Latin Vulgate including the politically inspired KJB.
It is indeed currently bleak in the UK and with a one man economic wrecking ball in the form of Ed Miliband as Lily Tomlin said ‘things are likely to get worse, before they get worse’.
And that is one of the things to still love about the UK. "The situation's hopeless, but it's not serious."
Despite our political and economic woes, here in Scotland: the leftist nationalist party (who strangely want unrestricted immigration) is in retreat; the summers been a bit rubbish weather wise but could have been worse; a pint of Tennents lager is still less than a fiver; both my daughters are on the path to do useful degrees in the sciences without leaving with a lifetime of debt; the seas off the West coast are full of dolphins, whales and Basking Sharks; the midges and ticks haven't been too irritating this summer; I can order a box of venison from a remote community with no link to the road network and it arrives in 2 days; I can still go and stay in a bothy (remote mountain shelter) for free whenever I want; driving an IC vehicle can still be a lot of fun with less traffic than most developed countries; a strong GBP vs USD makes our holiday next year relatively cheap; and the gold price continues to creep higher in GBP.
Your image of politicians' hands in other pockets is apt, and as I read it I had my own mental flash of some sea creature that ingests its food by everting its stomach and capturing prey in it before pulling it back into itself. For the life of me, though, I cannot remember what creature it is -- sea cucumber or anemone? Maybe -- I don't recall, but it seems an appropriate description of how our politicians continue to exist.
Happy to hear you’re doing better Joel! Nothing worse than back pain 🥴, other than watching a debate between a sociopathic narcissist and a living example of why DEI doesn’t work. The good thing for you is that most back pains go away with time. The bad thing for America is the real pain is only beginning, and death seems like it’s only cure 😕
Question: I wonder how many of our 46 Presidents, might objectively be diagnosed by a "qualified psychiatrist or psychologist" as a "sociopathic narcissist?" In fact, how many of the "most famous leaders in history" would get a similar diagnosis?
The Roman Empire did not fall it reinvented itself as the Holy Roman Empire. Rome became greater by associating with the God of the enemy Rome was never able conquer. In doing so the emperor simply claimed he not the prophets chosen by God speak His words. Replacement theology was born, all the promises given by God to His people were now transferred to the Roman church. Allowing the emperor to rule as a god, the vicar of the Christian Jesus, the right of divine rule, questioning lead to death. Those questioning Rome were the Jews, whom Rome took great delight in trying to eradicate.
300 years later Muhammad would claim the same God, his god would eventually be called Allah. He made it the charge of Islam to eradicate the Jews. 900 years later it was England's turn at empire building, they too chose to create a new State religion with accompanying church and clergy class claiming the God of Abraham. A political move allowing the kings or claim the right of divine rule over the people. The Jews once again were targeted for eradication. Why the Jews, simply they were a threat using only the Towrah of God in their possession all religions including Judaism can be show as false the right of divine rule is negated, the associated churches, clergy, and pronouncement from these entities are shown to be false by the words of the God of Abraham. Billions of souls fooled into believing they have attained eternal life have not, mom and dad, child and sister, brother are not waiting in some idilic setting. Empires rise and fall, sadly the create constructs that are simply fiction. America as a shining light on a hill was a great experiment, in human existence. We were not able to hold on to our republic. The first public dollar placed in private hands by government for any reason spelled the end of our republic. The Founding Fathers knew this would be the incidence for the end of the republic, they tried their best to separate powers, and to place the charge over the nations money into the hands of the Congress alone. Checks and balances, all based on a moral people moral in the sense they would uphold the Constitution of the nation.
How far we've come, I find it interesting the fall of the American empire is ushering a new call to eradicate the Jews. .1% of the entire worlds population are singled out for destruction. Does anyone wonder why Jews want their own nation a place to feel secure? The Irish ran all over the world, the same is true for all gentiles, and no one calls for their destruction.
The entire history of mankind, is going to end in the very place it began in one small nation containing one people in the Middle East. It will appear the Jews are going to be anihilated this time around, but a remnant will come to the realization their reliance on the IDF, Mossad, and government and the other nations of the world to protect them was misplaced. This remnant will call out to their God, Yahowah and He will come to defend them. If you're a gentile don't find yourself on the wrong side. America will be on the wrong side, we set the entire scenario up with out invasion of the Middle East with our sanctions against Russia and China, pushing both closer to Iran.
Source; The Prophets of Yahowah. Mostly Isaiah who details the event that will signal the final conflict and return of the king of kings who is identified as Dowd/David not the Christian Jesus. The even it is the partitioning of Israel creating an indefensible nation. I might also note Isaiah 9:6 is followed by verse 7 where in the son who WAS born is Dowd not Jesus. The man the Jews will weep over the one pierced for their transgressions was Dowd their king will return to protect his people.
Paul's Jesus character was created by associating all the verses and attributes of Dowd to Jesus. His gentile audience were not able to read Hebrew. However, according to Paul's final letters his ruse was discovered by his closest followers who all fled his presence.
I sympathize with your back problems and I don’t know the details so this probably won’t help. I’ve had back problems for years going out every couple months. I thought it was just the way it was anyway I decided I should be able to squat after seeing some Asian lady, looking all comfortable . Anyway, I started to think I should be able to squat so I started doing that for nine months . To buy pleasant surprise my back lower issues went away and I can now squat not comfortable yet, but I could do it. Best regards, Ed.
If the US Empire were to cease to exist, it would certainly bring about more peace to the world. This nation's government would not need to use force to achieve parity with the rest of the world, and we can get rid of all the people that are upset with the past successes that have been enjoyed by the American people. Then, since all nations of the world will be equal (?), we will no longer have to endure those who claim we have enjoyed privilege over the rest of the world.
My back went out the first time in 1983 when I sneezed violently while standing upright. Nothing but grief and pain and other injuries from that event and now I'm racked up somewhat good (bad) and anxiously waiting for another round of cortisone injections- the headaches are the worst.
I should have been a word man, better than a bird man...
As a reader in Britain I'd better answer the call and pen a few upbeat words about the state of play. ...
Em ...
AHH ..
Oh God we're so screwed.
Thanks for the citation. No one's called me a dear reader in, well, quite a while. But as such, I have to express my fear that you are veering too close to becoming a Trump apologist. Trying to "contextualize" his rants is a fool's errand. From a libertarian point of view, Trump and Harris are equally repellent, albeit for different reasons. The following should in no way be construed as an endorsement of Harris, so please do not. But the simple fact is that, with Trump, the damage to the republic is already done. The doctrine of the "unitary executive" raised its hideous head forty years ago, hit the accelerator with John Yoo in the Bush years and now, via Trump v. United States (a heinous decision never so aptly named), has torched the Constitution. This is perhaps the most famous exchange in our history: A woman approached Ben Franklin on the street after the Constitutional Convention. ''So, do we have a king?'' she asked. ''No madam,'' Franklin said. ''You have a republic - if you can keep it.'' Giving a president kingly powers was the single thing the Founders most wanted to avoid. They thought that the Constitutional separation of powers would prevent that from happening. And it did, until 2024. This year, a Supreme Court stacked with Trump appointees working expressly to his benefit gave its blessing to the unitary executive. No, the ruling does not give a president free rein to do whatever s/he wants; Congress may still employ impeachment and expulsion from office as a last resort against a tyrant (which, realistically, is not much of a deterrent). But what it does do is remove future accountability from a president's actions. With that gone, Franklin's republic is in cinders. Egregious abuses of power may occur under a President Trump or Harris--or a future President Vance or Newsom. Doesn't matter what party the person who decides to test the new limits represents. The only certainty is what history will remember Donald Trump and his court lackeys for. That they betrayed the grandest vision in human history, the idea that the people can self-rule and there should be no more kings....
There is much said here Mr. Hornig. What is not is that Mrs. Harris has been appointed by her party and not chosen by her people, thus enabling her handlers to rule. The big question is, who rules the DNC? Don't forget to vote.
Not the first time the Democrats have done this; the same thing happened to Gene McCarthy in '68 (for those of us geezers who remember). But the point isn't whether Harris is an illegitimate candidate nor whether she (or Trump) will be a miserable president. The point is that long after these two have faded into history, the disastrous Supreme Court ruling will continue to undermine the very basis of the republic. If the president, whomever it is, is to have kingly power, then there isn't much reason to vote....
Sending 20,000 Haitians to city of 50,000 in the midwest is just plain harassment (destruction of malicious intent) of Americans just like all the ideas laid out above.
As the last man standing after WW II, we rebuilt Europe and then -- by default, not desire -- became the go-to nation to defend it from the Communists.
We succeeded in this endeavor too. It took roughly 40 years but the USSR finally and totally collapsed.
I happened to be there when it did. Its peaceful collapse was due to the Russian people wanting a different form of government. Not because we were waving a sword
Joining a throng in St Issac's Square, which the Nazis shelled for several years accomplishing nothing, I vividly remember seeing a circular void in the enormous crowd facing the Mayor's ornate office building
Curious, and hoping it was a bench where I could give by "barking dogs" a rest, I squeezed my way to it. I was stunned to find a black Lincoln limousine with US flags posted on handsome stanchions on each side of the front bumper.
Apparently the US Consul parked his be-flagged car there to demonstrate the USA supported the Russian people in their quest to topple communism. And the massive crowd displayed its respect by treating this symbolic statement with respect.
Chaotic times but, on Day Three of their peaceful revolution, I traveled to Moscow in a near empty Aeroflot airplane.
I discovered the soldiers in Moscow had not been issued any rounds; it was all show. The peaceful revolution was over. Pity Putin is seeking to turn the clock back.
Pity too that we lost our way. Stunning that we invaded at horrendous expense three dirt pile countries, neither a threat to us (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) ignominiously losing each conflict and accomplishing nothing apart from killing millions.
Time to return our flag from all its postings abroad. Henceforth, let it follow trade; not bayonets
:let it follow trade" The key words.
I don't think that your "dirt pile" countries would have fitted that description without the economic and military intervention of your empire. Admittedly you have not been the first empire to try your hand with any of them, but have you been to Vietnam? If you compare and contrast the inner cities of Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh (Saigon) with those of any significant US city I think you may have to reassign the label "dirt pile" closer to home.
By the way Mr. Bowman, if you think brushing your teeth can be so perilous, try stepping out of a shower stall with something as treacherous as a 1.5" rise to prevent water runoff! But I'm delighted to see that you have survived. And it could be lovely, I agree with your implication there, to lie back and bask in the fading glories of a passed empire. The extra money would be nice, too.
Careful out there, folks!
Joel, first trip to BA this December. Is there any way to quickly search your previous Sunday Sesh(es) for fav parilla/malbec spots? Thank you!
I am afraid that the only way our "Empire" survives is that the essentially impossible happens. The Political Leaders (hopefully elected) decide that we must eliminate the deficit spending and bring down the debt. And, then they must actually start doing it! The chances of. that are probably less than 1%.
Less than 1% is way too optimistic.
LOL I was trying to be optimistic, my wife tells me I too often see the "glass half empty."
All empires end, because they are built on the concept of selfishness, instead of agape. This is covered in Discourse On Agape, which you can read free here: https://discourseonagape.org/booklets/ (There is a new Russian translation, as well as Spanish) And not just empires, but all life on earth will end, it's in Matthew 24: 14, and elsewhere. We are even told how it will end: And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. -Revelation 6:14, also Isaiah 34:4. In other words, the atmosphere will be gone. No air, no life. Fortunately, we do not have to die. All we need to do is receive the life of the Son of God, and we can be with Him and the Father forever, in a kingdom that cannot fall. Even if we die before the end of the world, we can be assured we will be raised in the first resurrection, Revelation 20: 4-6. But, I don't believe the end of the world is that far off. Most reading this may live to see the last day events.
PS: Be sure to see the rest of the Cole paintings, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Course_of_Empire_(paintings). This is the natural arc of all empires on earth.
You're not going to like my post. However, I can go over Isaiah 9:6-7 from the Hebrew wherein the verse starts out with Isaiah speaking of a past completed action. Unto us a child WAS born, WAS given. Verse seven identifies the son born as Dowd / David.
Christians for some reason believe someone other than the named king sits upon their throne. The current King Charles sits upon the throne of all past kings and his mother's throne. No one says king Charles is sitting upon the Queens throne. The same is true for the throne of Dowd, when it is spoken of Dowd will be occupying his throne not Greek Jesus.
Who wrote all Christians bibles? The very same empire that created the church. All English bibles are revisions of the Latin Vulgate including the politically inspired KJB.
Yawn. We've been over this before, Dennis. Take care.
Good luck with that Alex…..
Most peoples luck will run out.
It is indeed currently bleak in the UK and with a one man economic wrecking ball in the form of Ed Miliband as Lily Tomlin said ‘things are likely to get worse, before they get worse’.
And that is one of the things to still love about the UK. "The situation's hopeless, but it's not serious."
Despite our political and economic woes, here in Scotland: the leftist nationalist party (who strangely want unrestricted immigration) is in retreat; the summers been a bit rubbish weather wise but could have been worse; a pint of Tennents lager is still less than a fiver; both my daughters are on the path to do useful degrees in the sciences without leaving with a lifetime of debt; the seas off the West coast are full of dolphins, whales and Basking Sharks; the midges and ticks haven't been too irritating this summer; I can order a box of venison from a remote community with no link to the road network and it arrives in 2 days; I can still go and stay in a bothy (remote mountain shelter) for free whenever I want; driving an IC vehicle can still be a lot of fun with less traffic than most developed countries; a strong GBP vs USD makes our holiday next year relatively cheap; and the gold price continues to creep higher in GBP.
There's a lot more to enjoy if you let yourself.
The US seems to have become an empire of hatred, both given and received.
I would rather see America remain at number one, and act as the shining city on the hill...
So true Joel. Great historical perspective succinctly put.
Your image of politicians' hands in other pockets is apt, and as I read it I had my own mental flash of some sea creature that ingests its food by everting its stomach and capturing prey in it before pulling it back into itself. For the life of me, though, I cannot remember what creature it is -- sea cucumber or anemone? Maybe -- I don't recall, but it seems an appropriate description of how our politicians continue to exist.
Happy to hear you’re doing better Joel! Nothing worse than back pain 🥴, other than watching a debate between a sociopathic narcissist and a living example of why DEI doesn’t work. The good thing for you is that most back pains go away with time. The bad thing for America is the real pain is only beginning, and death seems like it’s only cure 😕
Question: I wonder how many of our 46 Presidents, might objectively be diagnosed by a "qualified psychiatrist or psychologist" as a "sociopathic narcissist?" In fact, how many of the "most famous leaders in history" would get a similar diagnosis?
Probably most.
I am afraid it is almost "a requirement of the role." Tell me that Biden is "normal."
DEI , another name for socialism, disguised as communism.
Did Earn It.
The Roman Empire did not fall it reinvented itself as the Holy Roman Empire. Rome became greater by associating with the God of the enemy Rome was never able conquer. In doing so the emperor simply claimed he not the prophets chosen by God speak His words. Replacement theology was born, all the promises given by God to His people were now transferred to the Roman church. Allowing the emperor to rule as a god, the vicar of the Christian Jesus, the right of divine rule, questioning lead to death. Those questioning Rome were the Jews, whom Rome took great delight in trying to eradicate.
300 years later Muhammad would claim the same God, his god would eventually be called Allah. He made it the charge of Islam to eradicate the Jews. 900 years later it was England's turn at empire building, they too chose to create a new State religion with accompanying church and clergy class claiming the God of Abraham. A political move allowing the kings or claim the right of divine rule over the people. The Jews once again were targeted for eradication. Why the Jews, simply they were a threat using only the Towrah of God in their possession all religions including Judaism can be show as false the right of divine rule is negated, the associated churches, clergy, and pronouncement from these entities are shown to be false by the words of the God of Abraham. Billions of souls fooled into believing they have attained eternal life have not, mom and dad, child and sister, brother are not waiting in some idilic setting. Empires rise and fall, sadly the create constructs that are simply fiction. America as a shining light on a hill was a great experiment, in human existence. We were not able to hold on to our republic. The first public dollar placed in private hands by government for any reason spelled the end of our republic. The Founding Fathers knew this would be the incidence for the end of the republic, they tried their best to separate powers, and to place the charge over the nations money into the hands of the Congress alone. Checks and balances, all based on a moral people moral in the sense they would uphold the Constitution of the nation.
How far we've come, I find it interesting the fall of the American empire is ushering a new call to eradicate the Jews. .1% of the entire worlds population are singled out for destruction. Does anyone wonder why Jews want their own nation a place to feel secure? The Irish ran all over the world, the same is true for all gentiles, and no one calls for their destruction.
The entire history of mankind, is going to end in the very place it began in one small nation containing one people in the Middle East. It will appear the Jews are going to be anihilated this time around, but a remnant will come to the realization their reliance on the IDF, Mossad, and government and the other nations of the world to protect them was misplaced. This remnant will call out to their God, Yahowah and He will come to defend them. If you're a gentile don't find yourself on the wrong side. America will be on the wrong side, we set the entire scenario up with out invasion of the Middle East with our sanctions against Russia and China, pushing both closer to Iran.
Source; The Prophets of Yahowah. Mostly Isaiah who details the event that will signal the final conflict and return of the king of kings who is identified as Dowd/David not the Christian Jesus. The even it is the partitioning of Israel creating an indefensible nation. I might also note Isaiah 9:6 is followed by verse 7 where in the son who WAS born is Dowd not Jesus. The man the Jews will weep over the one pierced for their transgressions was Dowd their king will return to protect his people.
Paul's Jesus character was created by associating all the verses and attributes of Dowd to Jesus. His gentile audience were not able to read Hebrew. However, according to Paul's final letters his ruse was discovered by his closest followers who all fled his presence.
I sympathize with your back problems and I don’t know the details so this probably won’t help. I’ve had back problems for years going out every couple months. I thought it was just the way it was anyway I decided I should be able to squat after seeing some Asian lady, looking all comfortable . Anyway, I started to think I should be able to squat so I started doing that for nine months . To buy pleasant surprise my back lower issues went away and I can now squat not comfortable yet, but I could do it. Best regards, Ed.
If the US Empire were to cease to exist, it would certainly bring about more peace to the world. This nation's government would not need to use force to achieve parity with the rest of the world, and we can get rid of all the people that are upset with the past successes that have been enjoyed by the American people. Then, since all nations of the world will be equal (?), we will no longer have to endure those who claim we have enjoyed privilege over the rest of the world.
Yeah, right. Tell me how THAT will happen!
My back went out the first time in 1983 when I sneezed violently while standing upright. Nothing but grief and pain and other injuries from that event and now I'm racked up somewhat good (bad) and anxiously waiting for another round of cortisone injections- the headaches are the worst.
I should have been a word man, better than a bird man...